I have to admit I am really struggling again
with the church stuff. Living and working in the in between time is hard. I asked Mark about some of the recent posts and his view based on their experience in Telford, his post was helpful particularly when thinking at a trans-local or global approach to church and enagagment. The harder issue is the very local involvement in local church. Several times I have withdrawn from traditional local expressions and now really only go for the relationships and for the children who enjoy it, I guess I don’t see the thing that I go to on sunday morning as church. Maybe that is part of the in between time.
We are an in between people, living in an in between time.
A people between two worlds, and two times.
A people of hope in a land of pain.
A people of pain in a land of hope
A people who see and read between the lines,
embracing the good of the old, discovering the space of the new
As culture shifts and changes the in between people move and grow,
We are an in between people, journeying in an in between world.
Hi Richard… it’s a really hard question isn’t it? On the one hand is the opportunity to create/grow something apart from an established local expression of church. On the other is being part of something that is already there (warts and all), and seeking to transform it as a part of that community. It’s a scary thing that anything we try to create tends to lurch towards structure and traditions, and the things we thought helped us to express who we are, start to take us over and control us. From there it’s so easy to forget why you do what you do, and just do it because you do!
I’m part of an ‘established’ church (in the sense that it has a structure, a local expression, meetings etc etc.), but I and many others increasingly want to see church expressed authentically and organically (I’ve been inspired by reading Shane Claiborne’s book recently). In many ways it would be easier to leave what is established and gets up my nose (annoying people, traditions, meetings you can’t quite figure out the point of) and start from the ground up. But I can’t help thinking that to leave the people who annoy me, and the things that frustrate me would be the easy thing to do. I think I want to live more ‘authentically’ within this context of ‘church’, because through that I can influence others to do the same. Or is that wishful thinking, and unlikely to happen?! Tricky question…
One thing that has sturck me recenlty which I think is relevant to this discussin is that we are never going to find an xpression of church, whatever that is, that we, and eveyone else who joins us, is going to be happy with. so whatever you or I enjoy as an expression of church richard, may not be someones elses, and they are bound to find fault at some point, andcrate something new.
One struggle I have been having with this, is the conflict between large church, IE large gatherings and how that builds relationships, and how people feel if they go there. But the reality is that some of these very large churches in this country have hundreds of ministries that reach out in relational ways to those who are hurting. But yet any time that I have visited some of them their welcome leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, and you fee, like a gold fish in a flipping large ocean. No relaitonship htere at all, and you are just ignored.
richard you are someone who I have known for years, and my respect for your view pint has grown hugely over the years even since we have parted company, I knoww e disagreed and argued, but moe and more I recognise so much sense in your struggles and your views on chrch.
relationships to me are so important, and so is ensuring tht these relationships include tose outside, not just the closed clike.
Does structure always have to damage relatioships, a lot fo the time it does, but we always need to realise that woking hard at relationships bring sfruit.
there is structure to my marriage with emma, but that does nto tak efrom the relationship, because we work at it.
I hope that some of this makes sense, but I also struggle with some things, and I hope I hve expressed these reasonably well.
Thanks Pete and Andy. Pete are you blogging again if so where??
A couple of responses:
Firstly I really struggle with the whole propping up something that is going, the season, new wineskin issues, and that is the root of the very tricky question Pete identifies.
Also there are ways of having structure where love is present that can embrace the differences people have and which is healthy, I guess the issue is can the local expressions of church cope with this – as we look to be open about the struggles with the local church and see what the reaction is.
I guess in some ways I am ‘blessed’ because I was given a blank slate… we didn’t grow from an existing Church… so we don’t have any particular relationship with a ‘Sunday Church’… we don’t go to one either, unless I am invited to speak 😉 when I left my old post I knew that I could not minister within a traditional church… I still couldn’t!… but saying that we are having to explore how our Missional Community that does most of its gathering in the evening, supports young Children… how we teach the stories (we have a 2.5 year old) etc. I have began to look at what Moot does in terms of ‘family’ gatherings and Godly play… so at the moment the relationship we have with the traditional Church is at a Diocesan/National level… but TBH there are more and more bits of that that I struggle with e.g. Fresh Expressions etc.
Hi Richard – I’m blogging as part of a collaborative effort, that’s come out of our church: http://aardvarkers.wordpress.com/
Interesting point about new wineskins… I don’t feel like I have (too) many problems in ditching current structures (or maybe I do?!), I think the issue I struggle with is leaving people. But perhaps when they cling to certain structures that are unhelpful, we have little choice?
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